[Music]
thank I get
[Music]
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri
President Obama has just lifted the arms
embargo on Vietnam it is 2016 the
Vietnam War ended more than 40 years ago
well actually the war never ended after
the Vietnamese Army entered Cambodia and
over through the genocidal Kus regime
the US and Britain continued to
recognize ppot dripping in Blood of
millions as the legitimate leader of
Cambodia even insisting that he kept the
country's seat at the UN the lifting of
this arms embargo has more to do with
the looming us confrontation with China
than with such local niceties though
officially welcoming the end of this
cold war embargo China knows this very
well so will Vietnam allow itself to
become an American catpa against China
how will China react what's it all about
anyway who better to talk us through it
than Dr Lee Jones of Queen Mary
University of London Dr Lee thank you
very much for joining us tell us what
you think the visit of President Obama
to Vietnam where he was Beatboxing with
a local rapper the last News Bulletin I
saw is really all about I think
fundamentally as you say it's really
about the looming confrontation uh with
China from the American perspective so
they've been so-called pivoting back to
Asia since 200
and nine after a long-standing focus on
the Middle East what the Americans are
trying to do is regain lost ground that
they've lost to China in the region and
cultivate stronger closer relationships
with countries that are concerned about
China's rise and Vietnam is one of those
but why has this uh kind of tension
emerged uh China supported the
Vietnamese people in their long war
against um the United States of America
which killed millions of Vietnamese
dropped oceans of chemical weapons on
them try to destroy the country why
should uh Vietnam be more hostile to
China than it is to the United States
well also because they have obviously
more of a similar political system right
and that similarity in political systems
means that there are party-to-party
links that keep a lid on any disputes
between the two countries um most of the
time but there's a couple of issues here
one is the the legacy of Chinese
imperialism in in Vietnam which goes
back many centuries uh and the
Vietnamese struggle for independence
from China the first time round and then
although China supported the Vietnamese
in their struggle against the Americans
as you say uh immediately after the war
there was a fear among the Vietnamese
that the Chinese would try and dominate
them so they instead aligned themselves
with the Soviets and because of the
split between the Soviets and the
Chinese in the context of the Cold War
that meant that they were enemies with
the Chinese and the Chinese punitive
invaded Northern Vietnam after the
Vietnamese overthrew paulp in Cambodia
and essentially China then aligned
itself with the asan countries and with
the United States against Vietnam for
the rest of the Cold War at the moment
the issue though is less the history and
more the current disputes over the South
China Sea tell us about those uh what
are the gripes that China's neighbors
have with China in the in the Straits in
the sea so the South China Sea is a very
large um area of ocean and it has um
very small Islands or maybe not even
Islands just kind of Rocky outcrops
things that submerge a high tide and uh
it's disputed between China and six
Southeast Asian States as to who
actually owns these islands right so not
just Vietnam but also importantly the
Philippines they're the kind of main
claimants but there are some others too
and what the conflict is really about is
about the resources Under the Sea so
fish in particular but also
hydrocarbons and during the Cold War
when China was quite weak Southeast
Asian states started to build up these
islands to construct um runways on them
and build military installations and so
on to solidify their claim to them
having grabbed them after they became
independent and now China is doing the
same thing now it has the capacity to
project Force Beyond its borders it's
trying to solidify the claims on the
islands that it occupies in order to get
those resources in the seabed and that's
leading to growing tensions and
conflicts in that part of the world and
isn't the clue in the name South China
Sea uh how do you evaluate the Val H how
would you evaluate the competing claims
I mean it depends under what framework
you interpret the claims but the
dominant one today is the UN convention
on the law of the sea from 1982 and
under under that China's claims are
actually very weak um because the most
of the formations in the South China Sea
are not really I as I mentioned they're
they low outcrops and that doesn't give
you any right to exclusivity over the
oceans surrounding it so that's what a
lot of the disputes are about it's kind
do they not belong to any country then
under the UN they may belong to somebody
but it doesn't give you any right over
the oceans necessarily but then the the
ownership of various islands is also
disputed so if we look at the the claims
that the Chinese are making they're not
consistent with prevailing International
law uh and China a signatory to that
1982 yes it is interestingly enough the
Americans are not even though they've
never ratified it but the Americans are
trying to make sure everyone complies
with it and in many of their practices
the Americans do in fact comply with it
even though they never ratified it um
but so there's a moment there's a case
uh in the uh in the international court
that the Philippines is suing basically
against China because China lays claim
to a vast area of ocean saying kind of
you know the OWN the ocean which is
again not consistent with international
law well that's the proximate cause but
isn't the real cause this looming
confrontation with China on much bigger
issues China is the biggest economy in
the world with the biggest armed forces
in the world it is the uh it is the
coming
superpower and the United States feels
threatened by that and therefore it's
setting up uh some maybe all of China's
neighbors as cats Sports I don't I don't
accept that I think that that kind of
analysis tends to undermine the agency
of the governments of these countries
themselves they have their own interests
they have their own agendas their own
identities and so on and they're pushing
those as well so what explains American
policy is precisely what you said but
that doesn't explain why Vietnam would
be willing to become a cats po
essentially Vietnam has its own
interests you know it's a very
nationalistic government it uses
nationalism to maintain power now that
it's basically abandoned communism in
the same way that the Chinese do and so
this territory has much more
significance politically than it does
economically so they need to hang on to
that and one way they want to hang on to
it is by getting external support
against the Chinese so that explains the
Vietnamese side so I think there's
there's two sides Vietnam has agency and
it is uh a genuinely Sovereign and
independent uh country but some of the
others are not Taiwan for example is not
uh I would argue the Philippines is not
uh these are to some degree or other
American satrapies and therefore are
catp uh for want of a better term well
probably in in a different disguise
Obama also brought with him something
called the transatlantic Pacific uh uh
partnership transpacific partnership
exactly so can you tell us more about
that uh the transpacific partnership is
uh again an attempt to displace Chinese
dominance and configure states in the
region that share uh America's approach
to economic governance into a free
trading regime or just like just like
TTI exactly between the Europeans the
specific version of of of ttip and
Vietnam is resisting that isn't it no
Vietnam has signed up to it um
surprisingly quite wholeheartedly ttip
probably is going off the rails because
of French opposition but TPP has been
signed by all the relevant parties and
this is making China more anxious yes I
think so um although I'm dubious that t
that TPP will ever really be fully
implemented because there's a l a huge
amount of protectionism in Southeast
Asian economies that's very unlikely to
be overcome um but it it's kind of a
strategic gesture you know it points out
that America's back you know there's an
option here to sort of soft balance
against China it provides those
countries with an option but I I I still
don't accept your line that these are
just American puppets you know people in
these countries have their own ideas
their own agendas Taiwan isn't a country
Taiwan Taiwan is a country Taiwan is a
country but it's not an independent
sovereign state it does rely on American
protection to avoid being reconquered by
the CH by mainland China no doubt about
that but I think successive I would say
liberated but that's another uh
successive electoral results in in
Taiwan demonstrate that these people
want their own future democratically
outside well the village of nether
Wallop could want its own independence
but it wouldn't stop it being a part of
England Taiwan is a part of China just
as Hong Kong was well that's one
position it's not the only one available
all right it's not the only others are
available could this all become a
shooting War China has just announced
this very day that it for the first time
is going to allow its missiles and its
Warheads to be put together and put into
submarines and sail around the Pacific
this is a very significant uh
potentially uh military strategic uh
change for China they're obviously
feeling very
threatened yeah I think you know they're
responding to American gestures with
their own
gestures uh I think that whenever you
get rivalry between Ma Powers it's
always dangerous you know when when
States take provocative measures then
other states will respond we've seen
that in Ukraine for example but in this
case I hope that the parties will not
escalate anything over the South China
Sea a lot of the conflicts in that
region are not really military conflicts
they often emerge from fishing boats
going into contested Waters and then
Coast Guard vessels trying to intercept
them and then they call for backup the
Navy said generally not involved there
generally clashes between Coast Guards
and that keeps things on a relatively
even Keel as long as the Navy stay out
of it then we're not going to see a
shooting War but there's always the risk
of escalation so in the end what's
needed in this region is a is a
diplomatic negotiated solution but that
seems a very long way off the uh the
Chinese have 246 nuclear missiles and
the United States has
7,000 and the uh countries around China
are uh are housing some of those and so
China's I suppose trying to uh rebalance
that equation no uh I'm not familiar
with any um American nuclear bases
surrounding China in
Japan oh I don't think so there are no
American nuclear weapons in Japan no I
don't believe so really yeah or South
Korea I don't think in South Korea
either I mean that's certainly not
something I know a huge amount about but
given the anti-nuclear policies of
Japanese government be very surprised if
there are any nuclear weapons on
Japanese so well we'll have to discuss
Korea on another uh occasion because
you're a fascinating man thank you very
much what do you call a murder in broad
daylight involving Decades of cover up
newspaper perty mishandled
investigations botched prosecutions and
millions of pounds of public money
wasted fiction no we call it the Strange
Case of Daniel Morgan deceased don't
miss
[Music]
it welcome back to Sputnik the
indefatigable Peter jukes's latest
campaign is for justice for Daniel
Morgan one of the most notorious
unsolved murders in British history it
has all the key ingredients for a
Netflix series a kind of Fargo on the
temps but it is alas all true welcome
back to the Sputnik Peter uh younger
viewers won't know what we're talking
about so begin if you would by telling
us what this case is about okay it
begins in the world of South London in
the 80s you know when whopping was a big
dispute and uh you know certain racists
were marching the BMP in South London
that area and there's a private
detective from Wales called Daniel
Morgan and he ran a company a private
detective company with another detective
called Jonathan Reese
Daniel claims and Witnesses say have
uncovered a massive story of police
corruption around about 1987 with
another police officer within a few and
he's apparently trying to t t the story
around he knew some people in the press
to various people in the Press
particularly news of the world but the
story never made it he is killed within
a few weeks four ax blos on the back of
the head and the and then falls down the
ground the ax is left embedded in his
face the police officer interestingly
enough and this is where un covered
since who was also you sending the story
came out with the story was also dead in
4 months as part as a parent suicide
anyway the first and murder
investigation was completely bodged and
then there was an in and then was an
inquest which said it was Daniel's
partner Jonathan ree who planned the
murder all along with a local corrupt
cop who was going to take Daniel's place
called Sid villery and he did take by
that point he had taken Daniel's place
in the private detective company it was
in his area the murder in catford he was
one of the first on the murder's team to
go there there was mates with Jonathan
ree the prime suspect cut a long story
short after these failed to murder
investigations Southern investigations
which is the private detective company
now run by Jonathan Ree and Daniel's
replacement the former officer Sid
fillery becomes the heart of the Dark
Arts of Fleet Street it becomes the
dominant Force mainly for news of the
world but also for the group of
obtaining money by bribing cops burglary
they were involved in the transaction to
get the papers from Patty Ashdown
solicitor that proved he was having an
affair they in that transact they were
involved in the bugging of David Miller
when it came you know David meler the
culture Minister said the Press were
drinking the last chance Salon they
managed to get him on tape having a fair
and basically they were One-Stop shop
for illegal stories you could get a cop
you medical records bank records
anything they're working with the
underworld they're working with the
press and corrupt cops and I'd say
uniquely this toxin enters the British
media system becomes dominant and it's
only the pce only look back at them
nearly 12 13 years later in 1999 they
put a bug in southern investigations the
private detective company and they find
30 crimes involving journalists one very
senior journalist I cannot mention for
legal reasons but also the chief crime
repor and editor of News of the World on
crime Alex marinack and a very senior
miror figure of course this is all
because of the media involved it's
buried and then there's a fourth and
fifth murder investigation 2002 and 2006
abelard 1 and two that is led by Dave
Cook uh who is surveyed hacked followed
News of the World by News of the World
the first investigation his wife is
traumatized she's only just she's
friends with Jill dando who was shot
public figure she worked on crime watch
and what does she see there's a band and
somebody sticking something out the
window so she thinks their family is
under attack Dave Cook confronts Rebecca
Brooks with the senior editor has been
working with Southern investigations and
they've been following him he didn't
know he's been hacked at that time they
only come out later and their computer
records Rebecca Brooks promotes him and
then what happens in 2006 Andy K is now
editor Reese has been imprison by the
way for Coke for planting cocaine on a
woman's car in a custody dispute with a
corrupt cop
comes out of prison gets hired by Andy
cson almost immediately and what happens
Theif Andy cson the former director of
communications at number 10 Downing
Street under David Cameron the very same
and then what happens a top secret
meeting with the Met commissioner San
Blair at the time decides to launch a
fifth murder inquir immediately that's
leaked to the murder suspects
corroborated by News of the World so
what you have is who watches the
Watchers you know is the the detectives
the police
were being bypassed and by news of the
world who had you know malare working
malare I spoke to malare about this he
was the Ace Telephone hacker and Tracer
hacked my phone as that happens really
well so there we go they to pay me a lot
of money for that well I think they did
pay off Dave Cook and Jackie haes but it
did that terrible things to their
marriage they felt very much under
threat and I find it extraordinary they
subverted this is better than Fargo uh
frankly Fargo's uh the Coen Brothers
couldn't have come up with a a more
tortuous story than this uh so where
does it lie now I've counted you've
mention six murder investigations five
five five murder investigations one
inquest yeah any
trials the last trial collapsed finally
uh and a very limited I must say they
were just looking at the murder my
research has shown there's a much bigger
element of police corruption what the
murder was about what was covering up
Daniel was a whistleblower but they did
charge uh Rees fillery for providing
course of Justice Reese for murder his
two brothers in-law uh Glenn and Gary
vien for the murder in 2011 but the
problem was by this time there 750,000
bit boxes of evidence so disclosure was
a Nightmare the super grass had a super
grass who with complicated things with
him and the problem your you know when
you're defending yourself against a
prosecution Case by the police where
it's pce corruption you have the most
brilliant defense um you know well how
do we know they're not corrupt now and
so what happened in pre-trial it was the
longest pre-trial hearing in British
history like three years of disclosure
and eventually the weight of evidence
and previous corruption collaps it so
the can it's very unlikely to be
criminal prosecutions if you spoke to
aliser the brother who's fought given up
his life to fight for his younger
brother Alis would say he doesn't want
that now it's beyond that he wants
transparency all the coverups going up
high levels of the Met high levels of
News International that's what he wants
to come
out well transparency is uh even more
difficult to get than criminal
convictions in uh cases like this
because isn't this story uh a question
of who guards the
guards uh it is although we don't have a
constitution it's kind of an Unwritten
assumption that the police can largely
be trusted but where they fall short the
fourth estate the media uh are the next
uh Port that one can uh turn to but this
case is an intersection isn't it of
police corruption media corruption and
the criminal class absolutely and who
knew we had so much corruption in all
three I mean it shocks me you I to like
to see to myself a skeptical scientific
challenging the status quo this story
just completely shocked me and one of
the tragic elements of it is is that
aler having and the first two inquiries
went nowhere no police corruption they
said there was a second after the murder
investigation in Hampshire inquiry and
the police complaints Authority aliser
said I'm not going to give up Daniel and
he trained to become a journalist cuz he
thought journalism was the solution to
police corruption and you that's true
generally police corruption stories over
after about 15 years the Press
investigated them but the Press were
infected too and that only AB only
realized this around the phone hacking
and that's just when you go he went to
actually fillery it's one of those trust
it's like a movie I'm going to go to
fillery tell him I suspect Jonathan
Reese of course Reese was working with
fillery so there's that first betrayal
but then he goes to the Press he goes to
News International talks to journalists
there while biller and Reese are taking
cash out the back of news of the world
and I think you're right it's it's CLE a
sh all the immune systems are gone
aren't they you know basically your your
back stop which is the Press if that's
corrupted too you get 30 years of cover
well uh the news of the world like
Daniel Morgan is now
deceased uh have they cleaned up their
act at News International and other
because News International were not
alone they were tapping my phone but so
was the mirror uh and a lot of this came
out of Southern investigations they
began that and it's interesting Reese
goes to prison that's when Glenn malare
becomes relied upon because you you
didn't have ree bribing cops so just to
answer your question it the good news is
you cannot bribe cops with impunity
anymore I mean I know a lot 35 sources
were shot by News International for
selling you stories to this news of the
world and the sun nearly all of them got
prosecuted the journalist didn't but
under the new bribery act you know
nobody pays cops for stories anymore and
it was you know it was the motor operand
if you were going like to a prison RI
I've told this many times stories like
this you went to the out of white you
try to find the story The Sun journalist
would have his feet up on the desk going
I've sort it out maid and drinking the
mini bar CU they paid off a prison
officer that system that systematic
Corruption of public officials has
finished would you come close to compare
this with the lawren case Steven
Lawrence case where obviously what
George mentioned also comes yeah meets
meets each other you know there very
close similarities and it's in the same
area and the The Wider network of cup
cops some involved in Daniel Morgan
murder when I search for Daniel Morgan
couldn't find anything it's only your
name po popped up whereas so how would
you explain the the more yeah it's been
exped really well tell us about the
podcast well well the podcast started on
on the 2nd of June a couple of days ago
and uh it's 10 part and one of the
reasons we did a podcast exactly this
problem I have been with Alister the
preser award and a senior mirror
journalist oh amazing story ala here's
my card but we can never publish it for
political reasons so what you have even
the guardian are not clear of
embarrassment over the Daniel never was
the word even or oos well I but but they
are you know they have difficulties with
the story so the media are embarrassed
or also very clear legal challenge so
what happened is the great
whistleblowing detective the SEC Dave
Cook who did the fourth and fifth murder
investigations arrested for talking
about doing a book with somebody silence
still not charged Five Years on so his
silence well nobody can silence you tell
us quickly where we can see your podcast
so you can find it on iTunes should be
highlighted there Untold the Daniel
Morgan murder story story it will be on
acast it should be and on Untold
murder.com I'm going to that right after
this thanks very
[Music]
much and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling G so why did
the US live the arms embargo after so
many decades Michael dun says forget the
politics there are other parties in play
on the board game that's in play right
now Finance the military and mercenaries
and euroman and activist says Obama is
going to Vietnam because he wants to
provoke China USA cannot accept that
China and Russia are equal players today
I don't myself blame Obama for doing it
I blame the Vietnamese for being
prepared to tango uh with the country
that uh cost them so much blood that's
all the tweets for today and which alas
means that's the end of the show but you
can stay in touch with us through
Twitter at r rtor Sputnik or on Facebook
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
[Music]